So, come with me back to the 17th century and indulge in a ‘mind game’ – an exercise in counterfactual history. The Caliphate never ended, it is but a few years of suppression in comparison to prior years in history. Vienna has fallen and Kara Mustafa Pasha’s forces have occupied the city. It all ended with the humiliating treaty of Karlowitz, by which the Ottomans lost Hungary, Transylvania, Azov, the Morea, and all the Adriatic north of Montenegro. Grubbiness and Comedy in Emerging Italian Cinema, Preventing Extremism, Protecting Institutions: Universities UK Guidance on External Speakers, An Interview with Ken Fero: Spotlight on UK Deaths in Police Custody in Ultraviolence. K. kazeuma. They were a … by Ludwig Heinrich Dyck. In 1683 The Ottoman empire besieged the Hapsburg city of Vienna with 138,000 men. It seems rather more likely they’d end up bogged down in Lower Austria defending their conquest while the Russians, Poles and Venetians carved off pieces around their periphery. The second siege of vienna began, but the Ottomans had taken vienna, so Austria& Hungary collapsed. In the summer of 1683, the main army of the Ottoman Empire, a large and well-equipped force, besieged Vienna. They were a … The book covers the siege itself in great detail without being laborious. In this alternate history, the POD is set during the Siege of Vienna by the Ottoman Turks in 1529 (Not to be confused with the one in 1683). Such a pity, if only we could restart that wheel of advancing mankind forward in terms of knowledge. In August 1526, Sultan Suleiman I decisively defeated the forces of King Louis II of Hungary at the Battle of Mohács, paving the way for the Ottomans to gain control of south-eastern Hungary; the childless King Louis was killed, possibly by drowning when he attempted to escape the battlefield. Even before the Almohads reigned Al-Andalus, there were massacres carried out against Jews by Muslims (Córdoba in 1013, Granada in 1066). “the most important commercial route to the east would have been in Ottoman hands.” Vienna was indeed an important trading post in the 15th or 16th century, but as far as I know after the discovery of the New World and trade routes bypassing the Ottoman Empire it had lost some of its importance. 1 comment. The Enemy at the Gate: Habsburgs, Ottomans and the Battle for Europe has a comprehensive introduction and background to the central event covered in the book, the Ottoman Siege of Vienna in 1683. By the late 1700s European states and armies are going to be pulling away, and the Ottomans falling further and further behind. Austria-Hungary, Prussia). If at all? There would have been no Russian revolution; no great-power rivalry, so no First World War and no Treaty of Versailles. The different religious groups lived together in peace and even amity, but there was neither formal nor informal equality. At a time when travel by road was virtually impossible and sea travel dangerous and uncertain, by controlling the Danube as far as Germany, the most important commercial route to the east would have been in Ottoman hands. Much of what we think we know is actually a blend of propaganda, selective remembrance and downright lies. As with the first siege in 1529, this too was unsuccessful and Vienna could not be captured. It’s hard to see how gaining a single city is going to alter that deep underlying trend. So you mean the siege in 1529, rather than the subsequent attempt in 1683? Just look at how well they treat those under their influence…Businesses flourish! Posted by 5 years ago. The main reason was that if Vienna fell, the Ottomans would press on to Poland, Rome, France, and the rest of Western Europe, perhaps farther. I’m not sure I agree with you about the Danube, because taking Vienna and Lower Austria would have meant that the Ottomans, for the first time, would have had control of the vital produce coming-up river towards France and the German states, from Silesia and Saxony, which became increasingly significant in the early 18th century. His brother-in-law, Archduke Ferdinand I of Austria, brother of Holy Roman Emperor Charles V, claimed the vacant Hungarian throne. The only way they could move another couple of hundred miles further north and west would be by ravaging Austria for loot and forage — which would pretty much nullify the point of capturing it in the first place. Ad Honorem. Generals and admirals were “turning Turk” as late as the 19th century — Josef Bem, the second best general of the Hungarian War of Independence, did it in 1849. The historic defeat at Vienna led to a series of catastrophes for the Ottomans, from the second battle of Mohacs to the fall of Belgrade and the Russian seizure of Azov. But there’s just no way that an Ottoman victory in 1683 would have led to an Ottoman super-empire dominating everything east of “a line from Denmark to Italy”. What if the Ottomans won the Siege of Vienna? Before 1683, the central and lower Danube — over 1500 miles of it, all the way down to the Black Sea — had already been in Ottoman hands for 150 years. You’re right about the churches, Dan. The Ottomans won the Battle of Vienna. The Battle of Vienna (German: Schlacht am Kahlen Berge or Kahlenberg (Battle of the Bald Mountain); Polish: bitwa pod Wiedniem or odsiecz wiedeńska (The Relief of Vienna); Modern Turkish: İkinci Viyana Kuşatması, Ottoman Turkish: Beç Ḳalʿası Muḥāṣarası) took place at Kahlenberg Mountain near Vienna on 12 September 1683 after the imperial city had been besieged by the Ottoman Empire for two months. My comment is still awaiting moderation?!!! And Venice was still a major power during that time, I doubt that it would fall too easily from an Ottoman attack. Matthias Church in Budapest, Hagia Sophia in Istanbul); why do you see no large, opulent cathedrals in ex-Ottoman cities such as Sofia and Belgrade dating back from Ottoman or pre-Ottoman times? 476 CE Where? Jews were treated brutally. “At a time when travel by road was virtually impossible and sea travel dangerous and uncertain, by controlling the Danube as far as Germany, the most important commercial route to the east would have been in Ottoman hands. In 1528 the Ottoman war machine had summed up a force of over 150,000 men and began to siege the city of Vienna. It’s not clear how adding another couple of hundred miles in lower Austria is going to provide “great riches and even greater influence”. So I’m not sure if I entirely agree with your statement that the taking of Vienna would have re-strengthened the Empire greatly. It’s true that the brutality of the Ottomans has been greatly exaggerated by Balkan nationalists and some historians. (Image: Imgur) D uring the summer of 1683, the Ottoman Turks were besieging Vienna. In 1683 the Ottoman Grand Vizier Kara Mustafa marched up the Danube with the objective of conquering the city of Vienna. The Second Punic War No wonder the police is in shambles with great thinkers like this man in their midst. The possibilities are endless and fascinating. An interesting analysis, but I find some parts biased against my Catholic religion and ignorant of some historical facts. Kara Mustafa was hated by many and was hated by nearly everyone. Hitler would have remained a failed architecture student in his home town of Linz, deep in Ottoman Austria, so there would have been no Second World War. It involved the army of the Ottoman Empire, led by Suleiman the Magnificent. Without the pressure of rivalry with Austria and France, Prussia would never have forced through the unification of Germany in 1871, which would have remained a collection of insignificant hereditary kingdoms. The Americans saw what happens in europe, as in fear that the Ottomans are going to rule the world declared war on the Ottoman Empire. Their code of ethics, the way they dress (the best and most expensive of fashion!) I doubt the Ottomans would allow cathedrals on a scale such as Notre Dame or St Peter’s Basilica to remain as churches. The Ottomans were already in decline,and had been for some time.The resurgence under the Kopruli Grand Viziers ended with their deaths,and so even if Vienna had been taken in 1683,Turk gains would have been temporary rather than permanent. The campaign that is often referred to as the “Siege of Vienna” (a more accurate title would be the “Second Ottoman Siege of Vienna”) was really all about ego. The Sultan tried once more … See more ideas about battle of vienna, vienna, battle. To commemorate the victory, and the role they played in saving their city, the bakers created a … What would have happened if the siege ended in a Turkish victory? The Ottomans did tolerate other religions, but they did not allow them an equal position with Islam. Thank you for your mature analysis. The main turkish attack was repulsed while their reinforcements from Germany and Poland, led by the famous Jan III Sobieski, charged agaisnt the ottoman lines and the turks lost 15,000 men and retreated. UMN Intl Rep. Question: Who won the Siege of Vienna? Directions: Using evidence from the documents above, respond to the task below in the space provided. The Bourbons were at war pretty much nonstop throughout the 17th and 18th centuries. The Hapsburg Empire and the Ottomans had long contested central Europe's control and for the control of Hungary. Finally, note that even victorious Ottomans will still have to deal with Prince Eugene of Savoy (who defeated them repeatedly) and, a bit later, Peter the Great (who fought them to one victory and one draw, but with both wars draining immense amounts of limited Ottoman resources and causing them to lose ground elsewhere). And if the real truth were to be told; the real truth! Posted by: David Gilbertson QPM  Driven from Austria, the Habsburg monarchy would have clung on to their outpost in Spain, but there would have been no Austria-Hungary. It becomes rapidly obvious that Wheatcroft has certain biases early on: The Ottomans were awesome (with the notable exceptions of Mehmed IV and Kara Mustafa) as an empire and a military power; the Habsburgs were middling mediocrities (with the exception of … The battle was won and Vienna was saved. He did not inspire any loyalty in his army. Siege of Vienna, (Sep-Oct 1529). The winged hussars wore feathered wooden arcs into a battle to intimidate the enemy. By 1700, all of Hungary, most of Austria, the Ukraine and much of Poland and Saxony would have been part of the Ottoman Empire or client states owing allegiance to the Sultan. The Siege of Vienna took place in 1529. Poland and the Ottomans were enemies, but that wasn't the main reason they came to the aid of Vienna. I cleverly use hyperbole by saying the world, don't take it literally. Just some comments on bits of your article: “Alongside them are soaring Catholic cathedrals and synagogues of surpassing beauty.” – as far as I know before the Ottoman reforms there were severe restrictions on church buildings throughout the Empire (For instance Greek Orthodox churches were not allowed to be built with domes). I don’t see how seizing Lower Austria gives the Ottomans either Silesia or Saxony. It all ended with the humiliating treaty of Karlowitz, by which the Ottomans lost Hungary, Transylvania, Azov, the Morea, and all the Adriatic north of Montenegro. The battle was fought by the Holy Roman Empire led by the Habsburg Monarchy and the Polish–Lithuanian Co… You need to explain why the fall of a single city, however strategically important, would cause all these allies to abandon the fight. And Vienna and Venice both never fell to the Ottomans. The Battle of Vienna took place on 11 September and 12 September 12, 1683 after Vienna had been besieged by the Ottoman Empire for two months. Finally, the king of Poland and his army of allied forces appeared on the horizon. (Image: Imgur) D uring the summer of 1683, the Ottoman Turks were besieging Vienna. The battle of Vienna or siege of Vienna in 1683 changed the course of European history forever. Hey! As to the Netherlands, I’m speaking of the Spanish Netherlands — what is now today Belgium, more or less. The empire was already suffering the internal problems that would send it into steady relative decline over the next 200 years. :661 The cavalry charge was one last deadly blow. The myth of the bearded and turbaned warrior wielding his scimitar and kidnapping virgin maids for his harem, has now been replaced by the fiction that beyond the shores of Europe the world is entirely peopled by bearded and turbaned warriors armed with explosives and AK47s, who wish us nothing but pain and suffering. There is a caliphate that stretches from Basra to Berlin with imposing centuries-old mosques in Vienna, Linz, Budapest and Warsaw. The battle of Vienna or siege of Vienna in 1683 changed the course of European history forever. For tactical and economic reasons, the Ottomans had long wanted to take Vienna and the Austrian lands from the Habsburg Monarchy. In 1683 all of the Balkans, together with large parts of Hungary and the Ukraine, formed the western edge of the Ottoman Empire, ruled from Constantinople by Sultan Mehmet IV. He did not inspire any loyalty, and he tried to terrify everyone to ensure that he was obeyed. How would the Turks have continued into Europe and where would they have stopped? Kara … I would also agree that the Ottoman Empire was already overstretched during that time, and by that time the Europeans had caught up with them in science/technology (remember that they were considered to have stopped being a threat to Europe after the second siege of Vienna). But what might have happened if the Poles had failed to arrive in time? Let us imagine the historical counter-factual. Agony or Revival of Democracy in the Land of the Pharaohs? The Siege of Vienna, in 1529, was the first attempt by the Ottoman Empire to capture the city of Vienna, Austria. Archived. Hungary and Persia did because they were right nextdoor to the bastards and were overwhelmed. By 1683 the Scientific Revolution is already in full swing, and the beginning of the Industrial Revolution in England is just a generation away. It is amazing what still exists in the not so very old records of history. I’d say that there is a fairly good chance that a significant number of German states declare independence from the Hapsburg domination if the Ottomans won the siege. Jack Steiner QPM is the former Deputy Assistant Commissioner to the Metropolitan Police, New Naples Yard, and the former HM Assistant Inspector of Constabulary at the Home Office. Speculative History. If the Muslims won the 718 siege of Constantinople the Italians would be Muslim and the Pope would be in England. It was the policy of the ottomans to convert the largest/most beautiful church in a newly conquered city (e.g. we would all see that the mafiosi are the best of people. Tags: Image from: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ottoman_miniature, Ouster of Elected Egyptian President Is a Hammer Blow to Arab Democracy. The Ottomans began the attack with an aim at stopping the deployment of the Holy League troops. If at all? From that would have flowed great riches and even greater influence.”. Reclaim Your Stage: In 1683, the Ottomans laid siege to Vienna for 61 days, in what was known as the second Turkish siege of Vienna. Many were killed. Just my 2c. A painting of the early stages of the Siege of Vienna. The whole of eastern Europe, from Muscovy to the Rhine would have been in the Sultan’s sphere of control. The thing is that the Ottomans didn't want Austria, and couldn't have conquered Linz (where the Emperor had fled) or Salzburg or other parts of Upper Austria anyways.. In 1529 the Ottoman Empire made a determined effort to capture Vienna, the capital of the Hapsburg Austrian Empire. No Napoleon would have meant that England could have remained at peace from the 1780s to 1815 and almost certainly able to retain the American colonies. Sipahis of the Ottoman Empire at Vienna, in battle, holding the Crescent Banner (by Józef Brandt). but at least be honest as to whose interests you are really looking out for. 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